• moakley@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      I just read a story about an American toddler who was left with a violent uncle when his mother was deported. She didn’t have the option to take him with her, and the uncle murdered him a few months later.

      But sure, it’s better that you vote for a third party rather than the only party that could have stopped these atrocities from happening.

      • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        Reminder that Obama began mass deportations, Trump began family separation, Biden maintained them and rised ICE’s budget.

        If you blame only one party for the state of this nation, you are part of the problem.

        I will acknowledge that one party is significantly worse. Absolutely no doubt about it. Democrats are there to protect the status quo republicans create. Voting for BS neoliberal democratic candidates only makes things worse.

        Also, elections are usually decided by razor thin margins. If the polls show that a third party is going to eat 2% of the democratic vote, they will be forced to push their candidates to pander to progressives and adopt their policies. But it would be much much better if you participate in the primaries to ensure progressives win the primaries in all levels of government.

        • moakley@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          I stopped reading as soon as I spotted a lie. So, first sentence.

          Obama didn’t support deport mothers without their children. And Biden reversed Trump’s policies.

          Both sides are not the same. One side is significantly worse.

          • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            I assume you mean “deport” rather than “support”.

            Obama began mass deportations, got the nickname deporter-in-chief. I stated that Trump began family separation. While it is true that Biden reversed some policies, he didn’t reverse the majority and most influential Trump policies, including family separation .

            I said no lies. One side inches towards fascism, the other one runs towards fascism. they are a ratchet system .

            Both are objectively bad, just one is worse.

            voting lesser evil is what brought us here.

            • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              1 day ago

              It’s so insanely disingenuous, and wildly historically inaccurate, to pretend that immigration enforcement now isn’t far more cruel (purposely) than under Obama or Biden.

              And listen, Obama’s deportation numbers are a huge fucking problem that I have with him. But the reality is that he did it while giving people due process.

              Anyone who was alive and sentient during that time knows that what’s happening now is 1000x more racist, evil, violent, cruel, and fundamentally unfair.

              • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                The disingenuous part is that you are arguing with absolutely no one. I have acknowledged that in every comment made. I keep saying conservatives are worse. it’s clear and obvious and if you keep arguing about that point then you’re an idiot.

                What is also disingenuous is that by focusing about how bad the worst party is. you sort of excuse the less evil but still evil democrats. Who usually do the same things as conservatives just in a more subdued and polite way and with less slurs.

                if we had Hillary then Biden then Kamala instead of Trump-Biden-Trump things would be better now, but we would still be fucked, just less aggressively. Technically better, but still a bad outcome.

                you think you’re playing the trolley problem:

                and you think you are the good guy by fucking over minorities and working class people. Instead of doing anything to stop the trolley.

                Have you registered to vote in the primaries?

                If not then you’re just a small internet troll. Just yelling online because you think politics are a sport and your just want your team to win. even of they are also horrible.

    • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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      2 days ago

      Except that’s the same thing as abstaining. At least in state and federal elections, even popular third party options like Ross Perot or Bull-Moose Teddy Roosevelt don’t get elected.

      • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        that’s the opposite of abstaining.

        it will show very clearly, what policies and type of candidate get how many votes and what policies they need to adopt if they want your vote back. and seeing how elections are won on razor thin margins, they will adopt those policies.

        Abstaining is great for the establishment, less people to pander. they want people to give up, they want the public to not vote.

        Are you familiar with Brexit? a fringe idea that ended becoming reality because UKIP was taking a few percentage votes from the Tories. so Tories promised a Brexit referendum. by doing so Brexit went from a fringe idea to part of the Overton window.

        Voting third party is a seriously strong move. Voting lesser evil leads to Trump.

        https://medium.com/tikun-olam/the-hidden-power-of-third-parties-6e42cc93dfc2

        • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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          1 day ago

          By my understanding, the Brexit vote didn’t work out for the UK public, and retrospectively they didn’t fully understand the consequences of what they voted for.

          Very much the way that Trump voters didn’t understand what they were getting, even though he told everyone who he was.

          Historically, at least in the US, voting third party has not been the flex you appear to believe it is.

          • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            my point is that voting third party is a really good way to get what you want. and it’s more powerful than voting one of the two main parties. not how good Brexit was.

            • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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              21 hours ago

              Then you made your point poorly, and I’m not sure if you’re confused or are wittingly trying to confuse and deceive me.

              Voting a third party in the US doesn’t get third party candidates elected. In fact, AIPAC is sponsoring opponents of candidates who have pledged not to take AIPAC contributions in order to dilute the vote. Election strategists are putting money behind the notion that third-party candidates serve as spoilers to principal candidates with whom they share platforms.

              • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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                21 hours ago

                I am fully aware that there is no hope for a third party to ever win. but my point is that voting third party is still a very powerful tool. Even with first past the post.

                I have provided an historical case study (don’t agree with the outcome, but the strength of third party vote is undeniable).

                And I would appreciate it if we can at least agree that the US 2 party system works as a ratchet to fuck everyone over (except the rich). Regardless of one party being objectively worse.

                • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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                  21 hours ago

                  Oh, I agree that the two party system does serve as a ratchet, and has since the 19th century with a few exceptions. I do believe it needs to be changed in order for the US to become a public-serving state. Since the 21st century, though, the Republican party has become an existential threat to even the meager democratic features of the US.

                  And given that third parties will typically be closer to the Democrats than Republicans in their platforms, third-party votes will displace Democratic votes more often than Republican votes. And in the current political clime, that is a problem.

                  • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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                    20 hours ago

                    however, getting a milk toast corporate neoliberal democrat next elections won’t help anyone. they’ll just say bs words like “healing”, “reconciliations”, “reaching across the isle”… instead of any systemic change.

                    and people simply can’t vote for that bs anymore, it’s so dystopian and unacceptable that Democrats asked the public to ignore a US paid genocide.

                    if Democrats ever want to win again, they have to get rid of their corporate BS and AIPAC.

                    also important, not sure if it’s too late for you, but vote in the primaries. Only way to get actual progression candidates.

                  • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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                    20 hours ago

                    however, getting a milk toast corporate neoliberal democrat next elections won’t help anyone. they’ll just say bs words like “healing”, “reconciliations”, “reaching across the isle”… instead of any systemic change.

                    and people simply can’t vote for that bs anymore, it’s so dystopian and unacceptable that Democrats asked the public to ignore a US paid genocide.

                    if Democrats ever want to win again, they have to get rid of their corporate BS and AIPAC.

                    also important, not sure if it’s too late for you, but vote in the primaries. Only way to get actual progression candidates.