Anarchy in theory is great and it is fairly obvious for small societies but it’s complicated for me to imagine how a a functional anarchist society would work with more people.

It would need very proactive and trustworthy people. Anyways I want to know how you all think of solving these problems.

The penalty system. I mean like what now is judges, cops, lawyers. I am guessing there will still be laws? I mean who would decide those anyways and if there were no laws ig it would be case specific. I guess people could do that without needing cops and if you get enough people you cpuld also find a system for that instead of laws

Military forces. I mean like an anarchist country could already be a target. So like if you have no defenses you disappear eventually and if that happens what was the point of having an anarchist country. And then like who is keeping all the weapons and stuff. I mean it could technically just once again be a non-for-profit and people who wqnt to fight just fight.

And some person just trying to take the power while getting people join to them. Even if they don’t get control a lot of people could die.

Like Idk maybe I am missing something or I’m dumb, well I am but like fkdjmed I was saying like all of these would need proactive, trustworthy, dedicated and good people. But I don’t think that’s the mayority of people, maybe I may be wrong but idk. Besides from a lot of people being agaonst the whole idea in the first place making it vey hard or almpst impoasible to mantain.

I still wanna hear what you all think of this ans other possible problems that you know of to like clear things up a little more for me, ty!

  • punkisundead [they/them]@slrpnk.net
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    Do you like fiction novels? I feel like novels that describe potential anarchist societies through the lense of one or more individuals are pretty helpful in kickstarting your imagination.

    I would recommend highly

    Maybe others can recommend similar oe shorter stories or different media with similar anarchist societies as a backdrop.

  • Aproposnix@scribe.disroot.org
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    Just a reminder to everyone, if you’re running Linux you can install the Anarchy package which contains the full Anarchist FAQ.

    On Debian based systems, run: sudo apt install anarchy

  • y0kai@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    So, this question is often asked and the real answer is that due to the very nature of anarchism, no one can really say for sure. To prescribe one system for “how it will all work” is sort of antithetical to anarchy. Emma Goldman touches on this in her essay “Anarchism” (iirc, someone correct me if i’m wrong lol).
    There are lots of different schools of thought, however. It’s not like there haven’t been attempts to answer the question, its just that they should all only be considered as possibilities, whereas the actual implementation may draw from all of these ideas or none of them, possibly even shifting according to the needs and abilities of the people over any given period of time.

    Here’s a good resource as well: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionI.html

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    What has helped me with my imagination is the idea of the abolishment of money and private (not personal) property. In any society without those two things the burden of being is just not there.

    In most societies the pressure that you must work for the sake of working because you must have money makes people desperate. If you do not work you do not get money and then you starve and you are homeless. I ask people “imagine if money is no longer issue. What would you do…” then they see the world through different eyes.

    Your question on trust and law today is with that punishing system of work and money and capital. Remove that burden and you remove a lot of those challenges. You begin to no longer judge crimes of need, you begin to mediate conflict of interests.

    It is a long path. It is not easy and is against the nature of everything around you. That is why it is revolutionary.

  • Of the Air (cele/celes)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    Hello there, these are good questions. Thank you for asking them.

    Anarchy in theory is great and it is fairly obvious for small societies.

    The point here is that, societies may in fact have to be smaller to function, at least for a while, until people learn to work together better. They may interoperate through networks though, for a good example of this we recommend the book “A Half-Built Garden” by Ruthanna Emrys.

    The penalty system.

    Time and time again carceral and punitive system have shown not to work for their stated goals. It is likely we would switch to a restorative and transformative model of justice, that or use violence very careful, like a scalpel instead of how it is currently used: like a sword or a bomb, swinging widly around or destroying whole communities of people.

    Military forces. I mean like an anarchist country could already be a target.

    If people cooperate, share freely and aren’t held back from doing so then it is likely there wouldn’t be those problems, plus we would likely move on from the resources, and ways of thinking that caused this. Though yes that is a good question to ponder in transitional phases, likely there would be something akin to a military that worked for the people whilst they deconstructed both systems and thinking which caused this.

    anarchist country

    This is kind of a contradiction in terms, countries are a product of having a state/central system of authority which isn’t what anarchists are likely interested in having.

    And some person just trying to take the power while getting people join to them.

    Right, which is why education and community support would have to be improved in order to counter this kind of person or group, not through coercion but more through teaching people to think for themselves and how to weigh costs against benefits. We tend to think that people would be more for a collective, and caring system/community, especially once they saw the benefits and weren’t raised in a coercive, individualistic, and violent one.

    Like Idk maybe I am missing something or I’m dumb

    It’s okay to not understand things, that doesn’t make you dumb. However, we would recommend reading, watching and listening to some people who break it all down. We can give recommendations if you’d like?

    But I don’t think that’s the mayority of people.

    People are maleable and tend to perform better when there’s less or no violence, coercion and they can get rest, none of these things are currently offered by most socieites/communities people live in.

    Besides from a lot of people being agaonst the whole idea in the first place making it vey hard or almpst impoasible to mantain.

    A lot of people are against things that would benefit them until they see them in action, most fights against anarchist communites/societies have been top down rather than communities against them.

    That isn’t to say it wasn’t provoked by those communities, or couldn’t be, however, they usually use state aparatus in order to get their way which is why we have to dismantle the state or figure out ways to protective ourselves against it until we can maintain control in a transitional phase. Which yes, would not be easy, but it would be worthwhile.

  • vane@lemmy.world
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    Every person who have hands can hold weapon. Every person can perform moral judge. People can join group and abandon any system they want and it doesn’t have to be anarchy system. Any people can arrive to any country at any time. Like imagine all UK people are suddenly abandoning their homes and arriving to France. Who can stop them ? Don’t overthink it. We are only two weeks of power failure away from this system.

  • Takapapatapaka@tarte.nuage-libre.fr
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    Imagine the same society, but everywhere there is hierarchy, you replace bosses by a collective assembly, which takes biggest decisions and mandates people for small, specified missions of oversight/management, and you get one option. From there, you can get another one if we want to do it without money : get rid of banks anf stuff, and organize local communities into regional federations, with multiple associations getting the information of what people need, and handling the collection and distribution of what is produced to everyone, and you get another one. Like people said, it can take many forms, both because there is a lot of different anarchist movments and because each one is not written in stone and is meant to evolve according to people needs.

    For cops/judges, most anarchist advocate for reparative systems instead of repressive ones. There does not really need to be laws, though you could still have it, because it just tries to solve problems with everyone agreeing on a reparation specific to each situation. People in Chiapas are trying to implement that if i’m not mistaken.

    For armies, anarchist did have armies in the past, you could have one or multiple existing in autonomy, or have a system where common people are trained to join an army of needed, like swiss people.

    The problem of people trying to rebuild power is of course a big one, but if we managed to get rid of a fully developped power in place since centuries, there’s no reason to think we can’t get rid of an emerging one.

    The questions you ask are very common, it’s not dumb. It’s just asked from the perspective we’ve been told so much and so early that it’s deeply rooted in us, that violence and coercion are necessary for a working society, so it’s hard to imagine anything outside of this.

    • ButteredBread@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      Oh yea I’m also not so conserned of people regaining power but more in a large amount of people trying to regain power and like killing a lot of people in the process.

      • Takapapatapaka@tarte.nuage-libre.fr
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        Oh, ok, then that’s part of the bigger problem of Counter-revolutionary processes, though it’s a wider term that can apply to anything that slightly deviates from the goals of the person employing it, including more “radical” or more “anarchistic” movements, it was first used for people opposing the french revolution and trying to reestablish monarchy. It’s not a specificity of anarchism, more of any revolution. I’m afraid there is no clear answer to that problem, it will always depend on local specificity and have an at best imperfect solution.

    • ButteredBread@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      Ty, that sounds nice. I was thinking of some stuff with it but it’s… probably better than current society anyways lol. Also, ye, thanks a lot.

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    I’ve never seen anyone square the circle of how anarchy would work with earth’s sporadic and unfair resource distribution.

    Imagine one community is built on nothing but arable land and a neighbor is starving with access to iron mines. What material force prevents the latter from subjugating the former with superior weapons?

    The arable community “gifts” food? Sounds an awful lot like a Danegeld, and that historically doesn’t end well. Some day the harvest will be too little or the ask will be too much.

    The arable community defends itself through sheer numbers? Good job, you fended them off, but those people starving in the hills still have better weapons and are still desperate enough to raid; you’ll need a group of people to hyperspecialize in violence for defense. So now you’re optimizing your society around feeding and arming the defender class… Over time the domestic power imbalance accumulates and one day you look up and realize you’ve invented feudalism.


    You can extend this thought experiment to any set of resources. If you want your anarchist utopia to have electronics, how do the copper mines of Chile not generate disproportionate power for whoever occupies them? What non-hierarchical power equilibrium enforces stability around fossil fuels, rare earth minerals, fishing rights, solar/wind power production, water access, etc… Don’t just tell me, show me on a map how it will work.

    And when you can’t do that, we can proceed to hunter-gatherer anarcho-primitivism. Then you can tell me what power equilibrium prevents the occupation of arable land for agriculture and the reseeding of sedentary civilization and violent hierarchy.

    • punkisundead [they/them]@slrpnk.net
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      Your questions have little to do with anarchism. You are describing situations where people do not want to do anarchy (as in collectively sharing ressources for the improvement of living of all people, practicing solidarity and prioritizing cooperation over domination). Anarchist are not forcing people to to anarchy when most of them do not want to do that).

      And I think " Don’t just tell me, show me on a map how it will work." this is just a bad faith thing to do when you are not willing to make a similar effort. Your examples are of literally two communities when on a global scale there would be uncountable communties. Please make your examples more realistic, so options such as intercommunity solidarity, reasonable alternatives for food sources and isolation of colonialist communities are actually available options.

      And if you really want detailed anarchists programs on how to distribute resources, this section of the anarchist FAQ highlights some theoretical attempts at that with citations so you can actually dive deeper into this. Many of the cited texts should be freely available.

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        this is just a bad faith thing to do when you are not willing to make a similar effort

        It takes very little energy to provide mountains of evidence but that doesn’t make it bad faith. Just look around at geopolitics to see it at play.

        • 130+ years of posturing for oil reserves
        • The power of China’s rare earth embargo on Japan
        • South American power struggles for Lithium
        • The Democratic Republic of Congo holding 70% of all Cobalt
        • The majority of global staple foods produced in six sub-regions of the United States, Brazil, China, India, Ukraine and Russia
        • The early positioning for Africa’s untapped insolation potential
        • Brazil, Russia, USA and Canada controlling huge chunks of the world’s freshwater reserves while 1/5 of the global population is heading towards permanent drought

        There are no “reasonable alternatives” for those resources; you have them or you don’t. Not having them puts you at huge disadvantage against adversaries who use them against you.

        What inter-community solidarity will stop endless waves of drones with guns from occupying your critical resources? How will your community plead with the subjugated drone makers on another continent when the subjugator controls all media access?

        The plainest fact I can see: the people who control the biggest slices of those pies will have the power to extort and subjugate most people, anarchist or otherwise. And as a corollary, the anarchist society will be at an incredible disadvantage against a state bolstered with subjugated labor.

        Anarchist are not forcing people to to anarchy when most of them do not want to do that

        You’re looking right past my question: what preserves a state of anarchy in a sea of state actors? How does a system of voluntary and conditional participation remain cohesive at a scale that can sustain itself in real world conditions, specifically while retaining core anarchist principles?

        I’m not opposed to anarchism in general, it makes sense as a personal philosophy and day to day mindset. But I’m baffled by those who believe they can manifest a strong stateless society. I truly don’t see how it could be sustained beyond fleeting and niche scenarios. “Go read theory” is a cop out answer for such a basic question.

        And unless I missed a section in your reference, none of that touched on my question at all. It’s hyper-focused on the internal stabilizing forces of anarchist societies. That’s all well and good, but none of it details the specific mechanisms that grant any advantages to preserve anarchism from communists shooting you in the back or colonialists looting your resources.

    • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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      There are always people that crave power.

      The point is not to have no people who crave power, but rather install a system which prevents the concentration of power.

      • punkisundead [they/them]@slrpnk.net
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        The goal is also to change the mindset and values of people. Anarchism only works when people actually want to do anarchy and for this we need to convince people to have the will to change

        • EnchiladaRaisins@lemmy.zip
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          The goal is also to change the mindset and values of people.

          Suppose we have a hypothetical individual named “Tonald Drump”. This individual has pathological conditions which force him to not only crave power and domination over others, but to be willing to do absolutely anything to those ends. He will say anything, do anything, and promise anything to get as much for himself as possible and to get as many people as possible to continually praise him. What shall be done about Mr. Drump?

          • punkisundead [they/them]@slrpnk.net
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            You took what I wrote as “The goal is also to change the mindset and values of all people.”, right? I understand the interpretation, but I think its a reading of my words that isnt the most reasonable. I thinks its more reasonable to assume that I meant people in general with some exceptions. There are probably 8.3 billion people on earth that I would rather spend any effort on before actively trying to change the mindest of Donald Trump.

            • EnchiladaRaisins@lemmy.zip
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              My point is that people like Trump will never have a change of mindset. If his problems truly are pathological then he can never have a change of mindset.

              I’m seriously asking. What would be done with him in an ideal society? Others here are saying that the goal is to make a society where power cannot be concentrated. Great, but someone like Trump will try to do so, and he will never ever stop until he is involuntarily stopped. What does stopping him look like?

              • punkisundead [they/them]@slrpnk.net
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                What would be done with him in an ideal society?

                Probably not so much? In an ideal society he wouldnt be able to order people around to do bad things for him, he wouldnt have money or power to pay people to do bad things for him, he wouldnt find platforms that would help him create a following, he wouldnt find many people actually joining his cause etc. So in the best case he would just give up or constantly fail and be a sad old man that soon dies because of age.

                But if he actually poses a problem with his anti social behaviour because change isnt something that he wants or can do and his actions seem to work to a degree, communities could try things such as:

                • socially isolate him in ways that make it hard to built any social power
                • monitoring his actions to intervene before he does violence
                • remove access to things he could use to do violence
                • exile him to a place where other bad actors live, like a a small town that can mostly sustain itself but gets some outside help to not be a death sentence
                • and lastly, trying to dominate people that maybe liberated themselves, with many maybe having lost friend, family, community members during their liberation, is a recipe to get oneself killed out of justified rage or through simple self defense.

                A more sophisticated answer is provided in the anarchist FAQ

      • tubermn@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        power can be gotton outside the state or formally organized systems. look at the mafia. i always wandered how would an anarchist system handle organized crime

        • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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          Prosfygika in Greece had to defend against organized crime which was partially sent there by the cops.

          Anarchist communes definetly need methods of self-defense.

    • Only because that is the kind of system they were raised in and there’s not systems in place to mitigate it.

      There have been studies to show that even those with ASPD can be helped to not act in these ways.

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          I rarely meet a person that prefers to use violence and domination over other means to solve a conflict.

          I very often meet people who somehow believe they themselves are one of the few that dont prefer to use violence and domination to solve a conflict.

          I think we should have a little more faith in other peoples potential.

        • Of the Air (cele/celes)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          Human nature is either maleable, or tends towards cooperation when given the chance.

          Besides, we aren’t human, so tend to see humans as interesting, and how they are or can become.

          Humans are a very interesting species, silly sometimes, but most of them mean well. They’re just lacking direction a little.

    • ButteredBread@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      Yes I mentioned something similar, I still wanted to hear what people thought. Besides it’s a anarchism community they probably have thought of it more than me.

  • cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.comBanned
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    I cant imagine anything being different, how would you do everything the same?

    Your imagination has failed. There are a million ways to do this shit, and part of anarchism is allowing many ways of life to thrive.

    I’ll also be reminding you that we currently have literally every problem you’re proposing, often funded or exacerbated by tax dollars and capital’s infernal machinery. Literally the worst case you’re afraid of isn’t worse than how most people already live.

    conquest

    You’ve seen how industrialized centralized militaries do against scrappy insurgencies where every person is a potential fighter. Its not good for them. They lose. They limp home bleeding. The wounds kill the beast as often as not. When the means of production proliferate and are impossible to control, so do the means of resistance. Nothing short of scorched earth extermination would give them the advantage, and I’m not even sure of that.

    Though the almost-anarchist AANES has several organized military groups that fought off the much larger better armed turkish-isis coalition, the anarchist-influenced zapatistas fought off the much larger Mexican federal military, and even Mao largely adopted our methods to make his authoritarian warlordism work for shit.

    laws

    Nope. You know when shit isn’t okay? When nobody would appreciate some shit? Yeah you do. Don’t fucking do that shit, or somebody, anybody, might do something about it. Unless you explain yourself. No more violent than a group of dedicated killers and kidnappers roaming the street, probably less, and certainly more egalitarian.

    It might even stop some of the awful shit victimization and exploitation that laws enforce and do nothing to stop.

    My answer to ‘who will stop murders if not police?’ is always ‘worst case? Same as now; friends and bystanders. But bystanders will be empowered to act and my tax dollars won’t have paid for the bullet and a weeks paid vacation for the murderer’

    people suck and need to be good

    People including myself have been raised and brutalized when we fail to participate in societies that run on engines of vice. Its been drilled into us. You still asked this. I was still here to answer you. A decentralized system of social cohesion is more adaptable and less corruptable, because there are no single points of failure and it doesn’t valorize exploitation and corruption.

    Without the hyperobject of authoritarian violence escalating everything, it gets a lot easier to talk to people about shit.

    When we aren’t all alienated from how others support us and our ways of life, it gets much easier to compromise with them, because the compromise is shit like ‘okay, let’s make more slightly less excessive graphics cards’ or ‘let’s all be a little hungry, so nobody fucking starves to death, because I throw up and waste like a thousand calories every time I see a corpse’ rather than ‘exterminate half the Jews and half the queers and half the (oh my god thanks was a centrist)’.

    inequality

    Takes a lot to maintain. The maintenance of injustice obeys almost the rules of thermodynamics. Without a belief than injustice is necessary or even acceptable, without a follower herd mentality where we can only make change with the permission of a daddy, it’s much harder to do and does not scale. Of course it will never be completely even-the best fish will always be at the coasts, just as it is now, and the farmer or expert gardener will always taste the best vegetables, but a conscious effort to keep everyone happy and fed is in everyone’s best interest, and who doesn’t want to share what they love? Which leads to

    why would anyone do anything

    If I want to put together a gaming computer, that requires infrastructure. That requires miners and electrical engineers and mechanical engineers and all sorts of technicians and tons of resources. That’s not really a problem; I know for a fact there are people in all of those professions who want to call me slurs and remind me that my mom gets way more laid than me (like I never lived in the same house with the woman) while they tea bag my virtual corpse. And they want others to shout slurs at over the internet too!

    It’s usually infrastructure that takes the real work. Infrastructure works for everybody, and if nobody owns it, everybody can use it, be responsible for it, maintain and improve it, make it work for them. Look at how open source software works.

    And its a lot less tempting to exploit others when you’ll have to defend that shit yourself, and everyone will hate you for it. Maybe kill you or embargo you for it. So everything ends up being for everybody. Or close enough.

    fairness

    You’ve never seen this shit. Every time you’ve ever been told you’re allowed or disallowed, it wasn’t based on ecological carrying capacity or long term feasability, but on totally artificial structures of privilege.

    It feels a lot different to be told ‘I’m sorry, there’s no food left. I can’t help’ or ‘this is incurable. All the research is hitting a brick wall’ than ‘sorry, you can’t afford to live, fucking peasant.’. Right now if I steal food, less food gets thrown away and the line doesn’t go up so much. During a famine in a rational society, if I steal food someone else goes hungry-or there was enough food I didn’t have to steal it. It’s not the same.

    In the future; consider reading a fucking book.

    • ButteredBread@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      Your imagination has failed

      Yes… that’s why I am asking… I think I nentioned or implied that or I tried to. I am half sure I literally said I was dumb somewhere.

      You know when shit isn’t okay? When nobody would appreciate some shit?

      Some people would kill you for things others would praise you for, but yea moral compass stuff and that.

      Also did you just also include communism? I didn’t really ask for that one and I don’t think I needed it but thanks for the effort.

      Anyways yea you kinda make some good points and explained the stuff mostly even if you exagerated a bit in some places kinda but I get the point.

      In the future, consider reading a fucking book.

      WHAT WAS THAT FOR‽ Like it was a geniuine question thanks for the help but if it is offensive or something you probs should not answer it anyways- But sorry I guess, I should’ve probably just searched it up.

      • Phantaloons@piefed.zipBannedBanned from community
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        WHAT WAS THAT FOR‽

        They’re afraid they’ll have to come up with an actual plan. Attacking you is just an attempt to make them look better, it’s basically ‘couch revolutionism’. There’s likely no intention for you to even read any of it. It’s all for them.

        Anarchy is a power void, there is no collective defense against private militias or half the country annexing itself and picking their own government, or just being wiped out by a neighbor that isn’t an anarchy. Who’s to stop them? Everyone? What if they don’t want to? It’s their right, after-all.

        “You can’t organize your own militia outside of the anarchy!”

        says who, authy nerd?!

        “You can’t just dip out on a war! We’re under attack!”

        fuck off, Stalin, fight your own war!

      • cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.comBanned
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        Americans don’t respect weakness and we have more than enough illiterate morons in every ideology. I’d prefer curious people be educated, and encourage them to seek that out. You can coddle if you like; diversity of tactics and all.

        • Of the Air (cele/celes)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          We’ve met plenty of americans not like that. So maybe it’s good to not generalise and take things on a case by case basis instead of assuming all of them are like that?

          Also, we wouldn’t call being kind and respectful ‘coddling’

    • Wobble@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      The infrastructure is a good topic. I would like to see the roads repaired and holes filled. The barrier added to protect people from dangerous situations or to slow cars in front of the school or the children care.

      Today it is not efficient and these things never get done. Maybe the state cannot “afford” or does not has “the capacity” or “the right” or it is “private”.

      If you try to take these actions with the agreement of your community and do it with the collective people and tools then it does not matter. The state will come to your home and punish you and your community and the state will destroy your improvements. If you resist this oppresion then they will use violence against you and your community because that is what must be done.

      The people know what the problems be, the people want to fix them and they know how to fix them. The state and the ministry and the offices and the officials and the laws and the small power that is held over others prevent you from fixing them with the threat of violence.

    • ButteredBread@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      I cant imagine anything being different, how would you do everything the same?

      Also ypu loterally mentioned alternatives to some things I said, I asked for that so like I don’t know what the point there is because like idk why you would have answered the question if I asked to do everything the same.

  • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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    3 days ago

    Here’s a thought experiment:

    Imagine trying to operate a modern county hospital as an anarchist organization. For the sake of the experiment, let’s assume this is a miraculous money-free post-scarcity society and we’re not worried about the cost associated with anything or handling billing nonsense. We are absolving ourselves of all of the complexities of the accounting department, thus simplifying everything. Materials and labor are supplied for free, somehow (handwaving details TK).

    OK, so what we’re concerned with is system management. Inputs and outputs, and internal processes. Patient appointments, work shifts, task assignments, surgery schedules, emergency response, education and training programs, laboratory analysis, medication distribution, food distribution, waste disposal, supply requisition, shipping and receiving, inpatient and outpatient care, and above all sanitation for everything. The goal is to have the right resources in the right places at the right times. If you miss the goal, people die.

    Is this a system that can operate effectively without dedicated authority figures? without centralized management? Can a hospital be run effectively as a coalition of equals, with no empowered oversight?

    No.

    Why would the rest of a society that exists around a hospital be any less complex in practice?

    • drkt@scribe.disroot.org
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      3 days ago

      Anarchy is, at its simplest, just a rejection of involuntary hierarchy. You can have a centralized management- you just can’t force and coerce people to work within that system. If you mistreat your doctors, they can leave, because management isn’t holding their wage over them as a bargaining chip. Besides that one difference, it would function exactly as a regular hospital.

          • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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            3 days ago

            I know there is labor that won’t be done voluntarily, yes.

            For instance, cleaning shit smeared over the walls of a restaurant bathroom, or sorting through garbage to separate recyclables, or changing catheter bags and diapers for adult patients.

            Sure, somewhere in the world you might find a few people who are happy to do that kind of work. Are there enough of those people spread throughout every community to actually complete the volume of work that needs them?

            • cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.comBanned
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              1 day ago

              So, I have cleaned shit-and-blood smeared walls on an unpaid volunteer basis for that inic I volunteered at. Literally that. I didn’t have to be there, and the benefit that I got was a cleaned bathroom for a place that really needed a clean bathroom, even if someone occasionally fucked up an IV injection or had extreme poop issues or mental health stuff.

              I wasn’t even the person most willing to to that work. I was just the one willing enough with few enough other responsibilities.

              I’ve also done extremely gross hospice care where qualified medical people weren’t available. Especially for people I loved, back when I used to do that.

              I should point out that this was how those needs were filled under your coercive regime with fewer/none of the community motivations that would be present in a more humane system.

              It turns out your precious coercive power doesn’t solve this problem either, because the people with those sorts of needs don’t generally have much ability to coerce, and when the strong bully the weak, they don’t get much into the habbit of nurturing them.

            • Brave Little Hitachi Wand@feddit.uk
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              3 days ago

              Cleaning isn’t an inherently undignified job, it’s just that we associate it with poor working conditions, inadequate compensation, and low status. None of those are inherent to the work. Both you and I would do fine in a job like that, if we were respected and got what we needed from society. For work that is genuinely unpleasant, there’s no reason I know of there can’t be non-monetary perks that would make it worthwhile.

              • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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                3 days ago

                Cleaning isn’t an inherently undignified job

                So what? It is still a job that most people don’t want to do. It is a job that people do when they can’t find other work. And typically the working conditions are poor.

                The point isn’t whether anyone would “do fine in a job like that”. The point is that very few people are signing up for those jobs voluntarily.

                For work that is genuinely unpleasant, there’s no reason I know of there can’t be non-monetary perks that would make it worthwhile.

                This I agree with. As a society we should be rewarding people who fill these very necessary roles. Janitors, especially those who work in medical facilities and have to regularly deal with biological waste, should be getting a lot more compensation.

                Regardless of whether that compensation is in the form of money or not, I don’t think that’s an example of anarchy. Providing such compensation would require some form of organized group that distributes it to the people doing the work, which means that group would have to collect whatever resources are necessary in order to distribute them, and then we’ve just reinvented taxes.

                • Brave Little Hitachi Wand@feddit.uk
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                  3 days ago

                  A quick few searches tell me that less than one percent (0.7%) of the population have janitorial jobs, at least in the US (easiest data to grab quickly here). It seems not at all insurmountable to find one in a hundred people who don’t mind bad smells and just want a simple job where they can listen to stuff and not think too hard. I’ve worked those jobs myself, and even without good pay it is pretty nice to just listen to books or music and not have to think too hard at work. If I could thrive on a job like that, I actually wouldn’t mind. It just seems like a bad example of why anarchism wouldn’t work, at least to me.

                • A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  3 days ago

                  So what? It is still a job that most people don’t want to do. It is a job that people do when they can’t find other work. And typically the working conditions are poor.

                  Rotate cleaning jobs. This turns keeping the surroundings clean into a collective responsibilty

          • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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            3 days ago

            At some level someone has to tell other people to do work that they don’t want to do, and those people have to do it or it won’t get done by anyone.

            • cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.comBanned
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              1 day ago

              So, I’m an adult. I live alone. I don’t clean my house as much as I should. Always been an issue for me. I remember my mother had to physically grab me and put her hands over mine to make me clean my room as a child. I’ve got some trauma on the topic.

              I do clean it. Even when its gross stuff like a toilet overflow. Why? Nobody tells me I need to. Nobody threatens me. Why do I do this?

            • Of the Air (cele/celes)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              3 days ago

              This assumes that there is work that someone, somewhere doesn’t want to do, or that it couldn’t be passed off to technology.

              Just because you might not want to do something doesn’t mean nobody does.

        • cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.comBanned
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          And? Like ‘ten people volunteered for that, we need someone for Tuesday night shift so people don’t die and Wednesday morning shift isn’t wading through corpses to get to the treatment rooms’ is valid. But please address my earlier upthread comment first.

          Also, if you don’t agree with me I’ll fucking kill you. Are you any more inclined to agree with me now?

          • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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            3 days ago

            Also, if you don’t agree with me I’ll fucking kill you. Are you any more inclined to agree with me now?

            You’re very zero-to-ten, aren’t you? As if authority necessarily means direct threats against life. How silly.

      • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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        3 days ago

        Which is why it’s a thought experiment. Come on, this isn’t complicated. Proof doesn’t happen in a thought experiment. Instead, you make a compelling argument based on logic and relevant examples.

        I gave an example of a situation that I believe is too complicated to function properly under anarchy. What is your counterargument?

        • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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          3 days ago

          Proof doesn’t happen in a thought experiment.

          Says who? Your conclusion of the thought experiment is completely vibes based.

          The whole exercise is a farce, since you can’t prove a negative anyway.

          But what are you trying to say? That hospitals wouldn’t work if they were implemented in the same exact manner as they are today. Ok, cool. The an anarchistic society would structure them differently.

          Even your centralisation argument falls flat, because a central administration could be implemented via mandate where the people in question get clearly defined powers over processes (especially where these powers end). If these rules are determined by consensus and the mandate is revokable, it’s still within one definition of anarchism.

    • A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Anarchists had no problem running hospitals in the past. Centralization just increases the amount of time information has to travel to get to its destination.

      Our comrades laid the foundations of a new health system … The new medical service embraced all of Catalonia. It constituted a great apparatus whose parts were geographically distributed according to different needs, all in accord with an overall plan. Catalonia was divided into nine [sic] zones: Barcelona, Tarragona, Lerida, Reus, Borghida, Ripoll, and Haute Pyreenees. In turn, all the surrounding villages and towns were served from these centers.

      Distributed throughout Catalonia were twenty-seven towns with a total of thirty-six health centers conducting services so thoroughly that every village, every hamlet, e\lery isolated peasant in the mountains, every woman, every child, anywhere, received adequate, up-to-date medical care. In each of the nine zones there was a central syndicate and a Control Committee located in Barcelona. Every department was autonomous within its own sphere. But this autonomy was not synonymous with isolation. The Central Committee in Barcelona, chosen by all the sections, met once a week with one delegate from each section to deal with common problems and to implement the general plan …

      The people immediately benefited from the projects of the health syndicate. The syndicate managed all hospitals and clinics. Six hospitals were opened in Barcelona … Eight new sanitariums were installed in converted luxurious homes ideally situated amidst mountains and pine forests. It was no easy task to convert these homes into efficient hospitals with all new facilities. One of them, for the treatment of tuberculosis, was considered among the best installations anywhere …

      The anarchist collectives by Sam Dolgoff

      Phage 99

    • cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.comBanned
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      3 days ago

      no

      Lol, you’ve never actually studied organizational theory and logistics bullshit. Fuck off with your imaginary ‘just so’ nonsense.

      I actually have studied this, read several books on the topic, and dozens on adjacent topics-and before that I volunteered (not as a medical professional) at an urban clinic that operated on nearly anarchist terms. There were no hand waves, buy some of the supplies were acquired without a lot of oversight from capitalist pigs.

      It worked shockingly well, the patients all said it was the best care they had ever had, there was no unaccountable authority-doctors and patients had a lot of say in how everything ran, to the extent they understood what the fuck they were talking about, and a little even when they didnt, because it was for them and their concerns mattered even when they asked for impossible bullshit that didn’t exist. Every doctor who participated said it made them a better doctor. I bet its still running.

      I can’t cite my source without partially doxxing myself, but I have actually seen this in person, and participated in it.

      But I can point at Zapatista clinics, which operate pretty similar (the patients determine what they need, the doctors want to be there) to this continually for over thirty years. Those I can cite, and are almost exactly what you describe and say is unfeasable, but without the hand waves in the poorest most rural part of mexico serving the most oppressed people persecuted by capitalist regimes all around them.

      The panthers(with medical research), ACT UP(with medical research that’s the foundation of most cutting edge shit today), and literally the invention of the concept of non-battlefield ambulances was invented along something close to but not exactly these lines.

      A huge chunk of modern medicine(emt’s, anything based on genetic modification or mRNA) was kind of invented this way within living memory.

      Please apologize for your delusionally counterfactual bullshit and edit your original comment to point out you were wrong in case anyone else reads it. Wouldn’t want to spread misinformation.

      • Phantaloons@piefed.zipBannedBanned from community
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        3 days ago

        You all produced your own gauze, bandage tape, iodine, antivirals and antibiotics, I take it or were those generous donations by the filthy capitalists?

      • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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        Please apologize for your delusionally counterfactual bullshit and edit your original comment to point out you were wrong in case anyone else reads it.

        You are way too adversarial to have a conversation with. Touch grass or something.